Posts by Disillusioned JW

36

“Hanging the earth upon nothing”

by FFGhost in

for those of you not up to speed on the latest jw trends, one of the key scriptures the jws are using in field serve-us lately is job 26:7, wherein the writer describes the earth as “hanging upon nothing”.. this text is used to indicate the bible’s “reliability”.

the reasoning goes something like this:.

“see, centuries ago, people thought the world was flat, or was resting on elephants or turtles, or some such nonsense.

Disillusioned JW

Thank you FFGhost for the list you provided of verses where the Bible's description of the Earth conflicts with scientific accuracy. However, the TNIV Bible (and most likely the latest NIV translation of Bible) does put most of those verses in poetic format, thus I do think most of the verses are poetic. However, despite the poetic nature of most of the verses you are correct in saying the cited Bible verses are expressing ideas of the Earth which disagree with scientific truth.

Readers: Note that some of the cited verses are explicitly stating that Yahweh God (Jehovah God, the LORD God) himself stated what is said in the verses. Those particular verses are not merely saying it is the idea of a human character in the biblical books or the idea of the human writer of the biblical books, but rather the actual statement of the biblical god himself. That is important to keep in mind as you evaluate the degree of accuracy of what the Bible teaches regarding the structure of the Earth, and thus also regarding even the claim of the existence of Yahweh God.

truth_b_known you are correct in what you said about the ancient Jewish cosmology. What the illustration provided by you says of the ancient Jewish idea about the structure of the Earth (including of Sheol) and the visible heavens (sky), and the location of alleged divine beings (whether those the Jews believed or whether those the pagan neighbors of the Jews believed) was also the idea of ancient non-Jewish peoples of Mesopotamia. That is mentioned in various scholarly publications, including in the 1991 edition of the NAB Bible (a Catholic Bible). The "Saint Joseph Edition", "Illustrated", of that Bible edition, in between the page numbered 4 and the page numbered 5 of the OT section, has a page with an illustration and a description of the illustration. The title of the illustration and its description is called "The World Of The Hebrews". The last sentence of that description says the following. "This was the same prescientific concept of the universe as that held by the Hebrews' pagan neighbors." That Bible edition is where I first learned that concept. That concept was a shock to me, since I was still a Bible believer at the time.

Because of the above, the verses cited by FFGhost, including the verses which are poetic, are literally stating what the Jewish biblical writers of those verses believed to be part of the structure of the Earth. For example, where they say the the Earth has a foundation and pillars they mean the Earth literally has both a physical foundation and physical pillars!

Diogenesister you are very correct in all of what you said about the Ancient Hebrew word (at Job 26:7) meaning "circle" and of the Hebrew word which means "sphere" or 'ball', and that if the writer of Job 26:7 had sphere/ball in mind he could have easily used the Hebrew word which had that meaning.

Readers: If the writer of Job 26:7 had the specific meaning of sphere/ball he should have used at Job 26:7 the specific Hebrew word which has that meaning, yet he didn't use that word at Job 26:7.

36

The question`s GOD beleiver / Creationists ignore or don`t / won`t / can`t answer ?

by smiddy3 in

the common thread of beleivers / creationists of a god creating life is design .. and if something / anything is designed it must have a designer ?.

however this reasoning is discarded when talking about the existence of god.. and if such a being as god somehow existed without a designer why not all forms of life itself as existing on earth ?.

coming into existence without a designer ?.

Disillusioned JW

BoogerMan, Energy-matter never came into existence, but rather has always existed. It can be transformed (for example some energy can be transformed into matter, and vice versa), for scientists have seen it take place and have done it (such as in nuclear fusion and nuclear fission reaction experiments). Energy-matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Even the big bang did not create/make energy matter. It did transform much energy into matter, but the sum total of energy-matter did not change. Thus as far we can tell from our study of physics, energy-matter is eternal. In that since energy-matter has one of the characteristics which the alleged creator/designer god has, namely no beginning and no end, namely eternal existence. Energy-matter is frequently detected by humans but no God has ever been detected by humans. It thus does not require faith to be convinced in the existence of energy-matter in place of being convinced of the existence of God.

36

The question`s GOD beleiver / Creationists ignore or don`t / won`t / can`t answer ?

by smiddy3 in

the common thread of beleivers / creationists of a god creating life is design .. and if something / anything is designed it must have a designer ?.

however this reasoning is discarded when talking about the existence of god.. and if such a being as god somehow existed without a designer why not all forms of life itself as existing on earth ?.

coming into existence without a designer ?.

Disillusioned JW

Correction/clarification: In my prior post where I said 'If he as Sea Breeze claims, hypothetically speaking, that Jesus Christ's fleshly human body was resurrected and ascended to heaven ..." I should have said "If Jesus Christ, as Sea Breeze claims, hypothetically speaking, has a fleshly human body which was resurrected and ascended to heaven ...".

36

The question`s GOD beleiver / Creationists ignore or don`t / won`t / can`t answer ?

by smiddy3 in

the common thread of beleivers / creationists of a god creating life is design .. and if something / anything is designed it must have a designer ?.

however this reasoning is discarded when talking about the existence of god.. and if such a being as god somehow existed without a designer why not all forms of life itself as existing on earth ?.

coming into existence without a designer ?.

Disillusioned JW

Hi Sea Breeze. Within two days I plan to make a post commenting on what you said about why orthodox Jews put faith in Jesus (a cursed man) and regarding your comment about the significance of the claim that Jesus was resurrected and walked out of the tomb.

36

The question`s GOD beleiver / Creationists ignore or don`t / won`t / can`t answer ?

by smiddy3 in

the common thread of beleivers / creationists of a god creating life is design .. and if something / anything is designed it must have a designer ?.

however this reasoning is discarded when talking about the existence of god.. and if such a being as god somehow existed without a designer why not all forms of life itself as existing on earth ?.

coming into existence without a designer ?.

Disillusioned JW

hooberus, would Jesus Christ, if he actually existed (hypothetically speaking) as both a human and as the son of God the Father meet your criteria of functional complexity? If he as Sea Breeze claims, hypothetically speaking, that Jesus Christ's fleshly human body was resurrected and ascended to heaven, and if Jesus is also God and a spirit being and part of a trinity, and if Jesus Christ also created/made and designed everything (and everyone) other than Jesus, Yahweh God the Father, and the holy spirit, would Jesus then be a designer who is more complex (according to the sense you use the word in this topic thread) than all humans (other than Jesus) who have ever existed? Furthermore, would the Trinity, if it actually exists, be a designer god who is even more complex than Jesus since it consists of both Jesus the Son, God the Father, and the holy spirit as one god instead of as three gods?

Keep in mind that parts of the Bible describe Yahweh God in very anthropomorphic terms. For example it says that he sees and hears (not just mind reads), planted a garden in Eden, fashioned/built/made a man out of dirt, built a woman from a rib bone, shut the door of the Ark, opened windows (or floodgates) in the heavens (or the sky or the expanse) and sent a downpour of water through them, smelt the aroma of a sacrifice made by Noah after the flood, cast down fire from heaven, is (or is like a) potter, has emotions and thoughts, is a manly warrior, and is king and our father. Many Christians (including the writers of the WT literature) believe he has a spiritual/spirit body. The book of Revelation describes John seeing him (and Jesus) in a vision sitting on a throne, and Acts describes Stephen seeing both God the father and Jesus also. Do such descriptions in the Bible and ideas of many Christians about Yahweh having an actual body of some sort indicate the biblical concept of Yahweh (at least as understood by many Christians) includes the idea that Yahweh has a human-like composition as part of his composition, including sensory organs/sensors?

Regarding a deistic type of god is the idea of it/he/she/them as a creator/designer essentially a meaningless concept since its composition is not defined at all and since no human has ever seen, heard, felt (such as by tactile means), smelled, tasted, or by any other sensory means detected such a being?

36

The question`s GOD beleiver / Creationists ignore or don`t / won`t / can`t answer ?

by smiddy3 in

the common thread of beleivers / creationists of a god creating life is design .. and if something / anything is designed it must have a designer ?.

however this reasoning is discarded when talking about the existence of god.. and if such a being as god somehow existed without a designer why not all forms of life itself as existing on earth ?.

coming into existence without a designer ?.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze, which types of rocks do you have in mind which had a known age prior to the dating of those rocks by a radiometric dating method? Do they include rocks which were formed within the past 100 years by lava?

36

The question`s GOD beleiver / Creationists ignore or don`t / won`t / can`t answer ?

by smiddy3 in

the common thread of beleivers / creationists of a god creating life is design .. and if something / anything is designed it must have a designer ?.

however this reasoning is discarded when talking about the existence of god.. and if such a being as god somehow existed without a designer why not all forms of life itself as existing on earth ?.

coming into existence without a designer ?.

Disillusioned JW

I read in science books pertaining to evolution that nonhuman animals (and maybe human infants?) don't have the choking problem. They can swallow and breathe at the same time. Non-infant humans have the problem because an organ in the throat (the larynx or pharynx or both, I forget which) is further down in the throat. But that difference in the construction allows humans to make a far greater number of vocal sounds than the nonhuman apes, thus giving humans the vocal apparatus for speech. What we have is a matter of it being good enough and it is a matter of evolution by natural selection making use of what was available for it to work with. Natural selection settled on a compromise. Only a tiny percentage of humans have choked to death but the vast majority of humans are able to speak vocally.

15

What decade or era in human history do you like the most or would have liked to live during?

by Fisherman in

in the us, the 60s and 70s was a great time to be alive except for getting drafted if you wanted to be that age.

they were music years, greatest movies, fun, simpler and enjoyable days—also except for the d&ugs.

.

Disillusioned JW

I prefer the current decade since it has the most freedoms and is the most progressive, has great knowledge most readily available (largely through the internet), there is no draft (in my country, the USA) to worry about, there is no fear (at least to me) of a nuclear war happening (unlike in the 1970s through the mid-1990s), and has the most advanced technology (including for consumers) available. In this decade we can access recordings of music and movies of the the 1950s-1990s, so there is no desire for me to go back to those times to access the music and movies of those times.

86

Is most of the promotion of creationism, not just that by the WT, charlatanism?

by Disillusioned JW in

is most of the promotion of creationism, not just that by the wt, charlatanism?.

https://www.fullmoon.nu/sources.bak/chapter%2010/part%202/gish%20exposed.html [which has an article called "creationism: bad science or immoral pseudoscience?

- (an expose of creationist dr. duane gish)"] says the following.. 'a look at the "scientific" creationist movement and a close examination of the tactics of a well-known and influential creationist will reveal that the creation "science" movement gains much of its strength through the use of distortion and scientifically unethical tactics.. .... with the facts explained and the lawsuits won, scientists declared victory and returned to their labs and offices.

Disillusioned JW

jhine, I didn't mean that the "British religious groups only accept evolution just because Darwin was British". I meant that maybe a higher percentage the population of England and the UK came to accept than maybe elsewhere because Darwin was British. I agree with you that JW and SDA religions both spread from the USA. Is the USA really the only country where the argument is raging? Even in countries where it is not raging, do some of those countries have at least 20% of their population believing in some nonevolutionary form of creation/creationsim (even if not a 7 day form and even if not a biblical form)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism_by_country says the following.

'In recent years the teaching of creationism has become a subject of debate in a variety of countries including Germany, the UK, Italy, the Netherlands, Poland, and Serbia.[29][30][31][32]

Creation science has been heavily promoted in immigrant communities in Western Europe, primarily by Turkish Islamic creationist Adnan Oktar.[29] On October 4, 2007, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe adopted The dangers of creationism in education, a resolution on the attempt by American-inspired creationists to promote creationism in European schools. It concludes "The war on the theory of evolution and on its proponents most often originates in forms of religious extremism closely linked to extreme right-wing political movements... some advocates of strict creationism are out to replace democracy by theocracy... If we are not careful, the values that are the very essence of the Council of Europe will be under direct threat from creationist fundamentalists."[33]

... Speaking at the British Science Association's British Science Festival at the University of Liverpool in 2008, Michael Reiss estimated that about only 10% of children were from a family that supported a creationist rather than evolutionary viewpoint.[50] Richard Dawkins has been quoted saying "I have spoken to a lot of science teachers in schools here in Britain who are finding an increasing number of students coming to them and saying they are Young Earth creationists."[51]

... Some private religious schools in the UK teach creationism rather than evolution.[47] The British Humanist Association and leading scientists campaigned to make creationism illegal in state funded schools from 2011 onwards. In 2014 they achieved their goal when the Department for Education updated the funding contracts of Academies and Free Schools to this effect, and at the same time, clarified that creationism being taught as science contravened existing 'British values' requirements.[54]

... Currently in Egypt, evolution is taught in schools but Saudi Arabia and Sudan have both banned the teaching of evolution in schools.[57][58] In recent times, creationism has become more widespread in other Islamic countries.[59]

... Following the 1980 Turkish coup d'état, the military leadership and subsequent governments promoted Islamicism to promote national unity, which eventually included translation and distribution of materials from the US Institute for Creation Research and creationist high-school textbooks.[29] A survey published in 2008 found that about 25% of people in Turkey accepted evolution as an explanation for how life came to exist.[61] In 2008, Richard Dawkins' website was banned in Turkey;[62] the ban was lifted in July 2011.[63] As of 2009, creationism had become the government's official position on origins.[56] ...

In 2017, Turkey announced plans to end the teaching of evolution in Turkish schools, with chairman of the Board of Education, Alpaslan Durmuş, claiming it was too complicated and "controversial" a topic for students.[70] '

I think that all public (government run) schools in the USA teach evolution (largely due to USA Supreme Court rulings), but maybe some of them might try to make a disclaimer about evolution or try to teach creationism or Intelligent Design along side it. In fundamentalist church run schools and in fundamentalist homeschooling (of the kind which meets the qualifications for getting a government recognized diploma or degree) the textbook sometimes teaches creationism and Christianity along with naturalistic evolution. Those books (for religious schools and for home schooling) thus properly inform students what the accepted scientific view is about evolution is, but they also present Christian rebuttals to it. But creationists don't always get their creationist view from school.

I don't recall the grade school (kindergarten through 8th grade) I attended ever teaching me evolution (but maybe it made a passing reference to it in some course), but it certainly never taught me creationism. The high school I went to taught evolution in the biology textbook and in the prehistory section of one of the world history textbooks, and none of my high school courses taught creationism. But, the JW religion I was raised in taught JW creationism in much of its literature and taught against evolution (against macroevolution, but not against microevolution). Likewise many people in the USA who became creationists got their creationism from their religious instruction (such as in church and/or from their parents) and not from public school courses.

86

Is most of the promotion of creationism, not just that by the WT, charlatanism?

by Disillusioned JW in

is most of the promotion of creationism, not just that by the wt, charlatanism?.

https://www.fullmoon.nu/sources.bak/chapter%2010/part%202/gish%20exposed.html [which has an article called "creationism: bad science or immoral pseudoscience?

- (an expose of creationist dr. duane gish)"] says the following.. 'a look at the "scientific" creationist movement and a close examination of the tactics of a well-known and influential creationist will reveal that the creation "science" movement gains much of its strength through the use of distortion and scientifically unethical tactics.. .... with the facts explained and the lawsuits won, scientists declared victory and returned to their labs and offices.

Disillusioned JW

jhine, in my neighborhood there is a Seventh-day Adventist Church within a 20 minute walk from home. In my department at work (of about 80 to 100) people there is a Seventh-day Adventist and there is one person who says she was formerly a JW and formerly a Mormon. Previously, during my 5 years as an employee at my current place of work I have met three JWs (two of whom were temporary workers).

I make my posts on this site to persuade people to switch from creationism to evolution because in my country (the USA, which is one of the largest countries in the world) there are more adults who believe in non-evolutionary creationism instead of evolution, and who believe that humans have existed for no more than than 10,000 years (according to polls). On this topic I am thus trying to change the minds primarily of US Americans.